Following on my post last week on Kerry Church Records ‘missing’, I got a number of very interesting and helpful comments. In case you have not seen them I am re-publishing two of them over the next couple of weeks. To-day you will see Jim Ryan’s comments on another aspect of what’s ‘missing’ and on transcriptions in general.
Jim Ryan or Dr. James G. Ryan is a writer and publisher who has been active in Irish genealogy for the past 25 years His book Irish Church Records has been a standard guide since its publication so we are privileged to get Jim’s views:
Kay, a very interesting piece, as usual. To add to the confusion caused by transcription, your readers should note that many existing RC church records are themselves transcriptions. The custom in Catholic parishes until the 1850s was that baptisms (and some marriages) took place in the home. The priest would travel the parish on horse-back and take note of the details of baptisms performed in a notebook (or perhaps just commit them to memory) and transcribe the information into the register when back at the parish church. This can be seen very clearly in some parish registers where a series of records by one priest is followed by another series of records by another priest. In some cases these records by different priests are out of date sequence. It was not until after the Synod of Thurles in 1850 that church baptism became mandatory. The practicalities of Catholic records compilation are described in ‘Irish Church Records’
See my book Irish Church Records for those interested. As further evidence of the existence of these notebooks, in recent research in the Franciscan Library in Dublin, I found a priest’s notebook with records for 5 years (1807-11) of baptisms and marriages in Rathangan parish in Wexford. None of the 230 baptisms and 46 marriages recorded found their way into the main register for some reason. The notebook also contains records of anointings, which are almost never (to my knowledge) recorded in registers. We at Ancestor Network are transcribing these and will publish them in our blog series in due course.
Here is a sample. It show entries in the notebook for 1808 including a marriage, offerings at Cleristown (no indication what for), an anointing and a baptism. The reference is Franciscan Library C104. It is interesting that the priest makes no effort to record the name of the person anointed. They are typically e.g …widow Mooney, a child in Cleristown, Joe Murphy’s grandmother.. etc. This suggests that his interest was for accounting rather than any need to transcribe the information, whereas the baptism and marriage records are recorded in detail (even though he never transcribed them!). An anointing cost 1s 1d.
I will add to Jim’s email above that in my experience over the years researching Kerry church records, I have seen quite a number of what passes for ‘original’ records, pages of which were obviously all written up later in time, maybe with the best intentions in the world, from old scraps and torn books. But they are not the records that were orginally noted by the priest officiating. So when we get to the records on IrishGenealogy.ie, you must remember that some are in fact transcriptions of transcriptions with a high probability of human error with each new transcriber.
I am looking for records in the Knocknagoshel area and thought I was ‘losing it’ when I couldn’t find any relevant ones and thanks to your article I now feel confident in my research again. I am having a few issues with residents from the surrounding areas of Mountcollins and Meen that probably resided in Knocknagoshel. I even found a birth in the County of Cork with the sponsors noted as parents and vice versa and that led me a merry dance for some time so your article mentioning this happening has again given me the much needed confidence boost to follow my instinct. Back to those Kerry Ancestors they certainly keep us on our toes! I am hoping that the 1921 Census when it finally comes out will solve some of my queries for those Knocknagoshel residents. Thank you for such an interesting blog.
Suzie, thank you for your comments. The other difficulty I have found with Knocknagoshel is because of its proximity to Abbeyfeale/Co. Limerick/Co. Cork borders, if an ancestor/descendant got married to a woman from one of these townlands, then the marriage would not have been in Knocknagoshel or in ‘Kerry’ for search purposes. We know that in the 18th/19th centuries most people married others in neighbouring townlands and the marriage was always conducted in the bride’s parish. Kay
Hello I have found my grandmother and grandfather in kerry marriage records . The registration district knocknagashal and she resided in Headlrys Bridge at the time of the marriage date 1908. I cannot find a birth registration for her and I believe it was 1880 as this is the date recorded . Can you help
Jill, I would obviously need some information. I will send you a Query Form separately.
Thanks for that! I am about 3yrs into my Kerry family research. Understating how this information gets from point A to point B is very important. It could have saved me a lot of effort.
-Martin
Dear Kay,
The wedding at home option – would that be the venue of choice for someone marrying a bride 31 years his junior?! I have one Robert McClure ( Estate Agent) and Deborah Hickson in Tralee for whom no nuptials can be found ( C of I) but baptisms do exist starting with Robert in 1816. Robert Snr resided in Hazelton, Kenmare.
Robert had a younger brother Anthony whose children were named similarly thus causing three of us researching their lines a great deal of confusion, what with the lack of parents named on baptisms. Anthony lived in Bullock Hill in Tralee. If a child is born in Oakpark, can one reasonably assume they belong to Anthony not Robert? Was a farm sustainable in near Glenhazel Kenmare ?
Nathalie, all weddings (whatever the age of the bride and groom!) were held at home in the nineteenth century. In the case of the McClure/Hicksons, members of the Established Church, the marriage would have taken place in the local Church of Ireland and the reception part at home of course. Both Tralee and Kenmare Church of Ireland Baptisms are on wwwIrishGenealogy.ie and yes if Anthony’s children’s address is Bullock Hill or Oakpark, well that is about 80 miles from Kenmare. Sorry I have no idea if a ‘farm’ would be sustainable near Glenhazel, Kenmare without knowing the acreage.
Hello again Kay,
Thank you for your reply. Now the baptisms for the McClure / Hickson couple are all in place. Just where the happy couple were married circa 1810 -1815 remains a mystery. Records from either Cof I or RC churches are minding the secret for the time being!
So Glenhazel would have some rural acreage then so that answers my question.
Back to the drawing board!
Thank-you!
Nathalie
Nathalie, there is no record for the McClures in ‘Glenhazel’. However, I am sure its the same family, at the time of Griffiths Valuation
‘The representatives of Rev. D. Mahony were leasing a house valued at £25 to James McClure at the time of Griffith’s Valuation. The McClures were the agents for the Mahony estate for many years. It is labelled “Dromore Old” on the 1st edition Ordnance Survey map and as “Old Dromore House” on the later 25-inch edition of the 1890s. Bary states that it was the original Mahony house before the building of Dromore Castle. It is not extant now.’. See http://landedestates.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/estate-show.jsp?id=1878